Google’s Search Off The Record Podcast Interviews Michelle Robbins, Analyst and Engineer

Gary 0:10
Hello, and welcome to another episode of Search Off the Record, a podcast coming to you from the Google Search team discussing all things search and having some fun along the way. My name is Gary with a B. And I’m joined today by Lizzi Sassman, from the search relations team, of which I’m also part of. Say Hi, Lizzi.

Lizzi Sassman 0:30
Hi, I’m sorry, I’m afraid I can’t do that. What? Just say hi. I’m reading the script. I don’t know, it’s there in the notes. It’s, I’m looking at it, you’re looking at it too. Should I say Hi, Gary?

Gary 0:45
Just forget it. That was Lizzi. So continuing with our In the Spotlight series, in which we present folks from the larger search marketing community who inspire us. Today, we have a very special guest. Someone who’s very close to my heart in a very professional way. Michelle Robbins.

Michelle Robbins 1:08
Hello. Thanks for having me.

Gary 1:10
Well, hi. I think I haven’t seen you in person for a very long time. Two years.

Michelle Robbins 1:16
It’s been a minute.

Gary 1:17
I think it was Pubcon Vegas when we last met, or something like that.

Michelle Robbins 1:23
That would have been it. That would have been the last big conference before COVID.

Gary 1:27
Right. And then lock downs and staying away from people. And then we got bored at one point, if I remember correctly, and we started a bake off,

Michelle Robbins 1:38
Yes, who started it? One of us baked something and saw it. And I may have seen something that Gary baked and I was like, inspired to bake something. And so then I baked something. And then he baked something and it just kind of went back and forth every week, where we sort of upped the ante on the challenge of baking. And there was one consistent thread through Gary’s bakes however,

Lizzi Sassman 2:04
Okay, tell me more.

Michelle Robbins 2:07
The man likes his macho, is all I will say.

Gary 2:10
Well, yeah, because Macho is amazing. And you have to put it in everything. And you’re the macho guy. He is the macho guy. Yeah. And that’s why I have the macho guy.com. But baking is not why we are here. Because it turns out, this is not a cooking show. So I would want to talk a little bit about you as well, after all the baking, because your career is quite inspiring. And maybe we can inspire someone by telling your story. Do you remember when was the first time you encountered a computer? Yeah. What kind of computer it was?

Michelle Robbins 2:44
Oh, gosh. I can’t remember what kind of computer it was. I remember it being very large. My mother worked at a law firm. She was a paralegal. And so she worked on these very large computers for her job. And in the summers. You know, during junior high school, I would go in and like do file clerk stuff. And so that was the first time I ever saw computers. They were definitely DOS based.

Gary 3:09
And what were you doing on those computers?

Michelle Robbins 3:11
I was not playing games. It was a file clerk. I was filing papers.

Lizzi Sassman 3:16
You know, I have like a similar story with DOS computers in my first interaction with a computer at my grandpa’s optometry office and doing like patient data entry with the program that he made on DOS. And that was like a summer job.

Gary 3:35
Did you get paid?

Lizzi Sassman 3:36
I think there was like some kind of deal about like a car being passed down or something. So it worked itself out that I got like a hand-me-down vehicle. So I was paid with equipment, I guess. Well,

Gary 3:50
if you got paid, and it’s not slavery, I guess.

Michelle Robbins 3:53
I got paid. Well, with money with money. Yeah,

Lizzi Sassman 3:57
I guess you can be paid in other ways. But yeah, with money that you’ve got to choose what to do with the money. Exactly. Yes, the car was to drive me to future jobs. So I think it was meant to be a vehicle in more ways than one, I guess.

Gary 4:12
Interesting. And, Michelle, when do you remember when was the first time you encountered the internet by chance?

Michelle Robbins 4:17
It was actually AOL Instant Messenger. When people started using that. That was the first time you know, besides like, local network protocols, I mean, obviously email at work, but communicating with people not on your corporate network was AOL Instant Messenger. And then ICQ. Do you remember ICQ? Anybody?

Gary 4:37
I never actually used ICQ. In our group, it was somehow frowned upon to use ICQ. But I don’t know why. Like, I don’t remember why. And everyone was using IRC and then the Merc mIRC application and that was amazing for many reasons. But ICQ, no.

Lizzi Sassman 4:56
Was AIM much after that?

Michelle Robbins 4:59
AIM. That’s AOL Instant Messenger.

Lizzi Sassman 5:01
I remember the name. AOL Instant Messenger. I guess I that’s…

Michelle Robbins 5:05
So AOL was before ICQ. But then AIM really took off. And that’s what, I don’t think it contributed to the death of ICQ. But everyone eventually moved off of ICQ, as well. And then there was Trellian. But that was more of an app that you could combine all of the different platforms in.

Gary 5:22
And how about websites? Did you have like, favorite websites where you went and checked recipes, for example, because there wasn’t a cooking show?

Michelle Robbins 5:29
There were not recipes on the web net back in the day. No, I didn’t actually start meaningfully working on the internet and using the internet until much later, when I was working at the software and online startup in Orange County. Oh, cool. That was when I first really started to, you know, it was after I had worked in marketing at Disney. And so very traditional, traditional media, traditional marketing, and left there to join a startup from some friends from college. And half of the business was focused on software, web server utility development, and the other half was online, you know, getting people to get websites. And it was really funny, because we would hold these Lunch and Learns where we would have local businesses come in, and we’d be like, and this is the internet. And you should probably have a domain name. And so we had registered like El Pollo Loco, we had all–we had so many brands names, because this is before they, we tried to convince them like, look, we have your domain name, but you should have it let us build a website for you. And they just thought we were bananas. It was it was really, really an interesting time.

Lizzi Sassman 6:39
And at this point, did you have your own website? Like you’re going around telling other people like you should have a website? Did you have one?

Michelle Robbins 6:46
I did not. Because in my in–from my perspective, websites were for businesses. I did not have a business yet. And so I did not see a need for a website. I wasn’t like, Hey, look at me. So I didn’t, I didn’t, I didn’t have a use for one. And I considered it more you know, it was more work aligned. It’s what we did it at work, we built websites, and we built, you know, applications and things like that. It wasn’t until later that, when I had my own consulting business, and that’s when I pivoted into actually away from marketing and more into computer science, because while I was at the company, it’s actually where I also learned search marketing first. The online division was run by Danny Sullivan, you might have heard of him. And Ken was the founder of the software company, and has been my longtime mentor in my programming career. So I learned search marketing, you know, as search marketing evolved from the very early days. In fact, one time a bunch of us were at the movies, it was an off site. And we were all in line, it was well Empire Strikes Back was back in theaters, come on. So we’re all in line. And I remember Ken and Danny were talking about e-commerce. And this is before there was e-commerce, but, and they were asking me and another woman that worked there, they were like, do you think you’d ever buy clothes online? And I was like, What? Are you kidding? Why would you do that? So it’s really, it’s really been fun to kind of see the entire evolution of, you know, just using the web for information and for understanding information. And shifting into it just being a daily part of our lives that we don’t even think. In the background

Gary 8:32
I’m also counting that this was your third job that you mentioned that these…

Lizzi Sassman 8:37
Or career change?

Michelle Robbins 8:39
So that was the second. So I went from Disney to the startup. And then from there, I really wanted to understand, you know, what the software side was doing? Right? So they had brought me in to do you know, sales and marketing, because that was my background. And so I felt like I could if I understood more about what they did, and about the programs than I could more effectively market them. So I said, you know, I want to understand more about actually what you guys do at a more fundamental level. And this is where I think that when you talk about you know, career development and how you can become involved in any given, you know, industry or anything, I think the importance of having mentors and having people to sponsor you on your career trajectory is so critical. I 100% would not be where I am today, but for these four really key individuals that helped influence me and support me on my own journey. And so, from the software side, these three guys, basically, the two of them, said, Tell you what, pick a topic, set aside an hour in the conference room every week, pick a topic and we’ll you know, we’ll tell you all about it. And I was like Okay, great. First topic, TCP IP. What’s that all about? Because my background wasn’t actually you know, from an educational standpoint was not in technology. I doubled in Criminal Justice and psychology. So this was a complete 360 for me. But once we started diving into it, I realized this is really interesting. And I really want to learn more and do more. So I went back to UCI and took programming courses through their extension. And so. Oh, wow I focus primarily on Microsoft technologies, because they built Microsoft web server utilities. So that was the technologies utilized in all of our programs. So my first you know, when I first started learning program, it was all Microsoft, it was C,VP, you know, all of that. So that’s kind of what started my career shift into technology. And from there, there was also another person at the company, who, he’s now been at Google for probably over 20 years, who at that time was our primary developer and designer, he had come out of art school. And he taught me HTML and CSS. So I learned that from him, and I learned the programming from these two incredible programmers who are now working, like one works in biometric authentication at VeriSign, and others worked at snap and is now at Facebook, I think. So I had incredible mentors. And then, of course, I learned, you know, search marketing and all about search engines from Danny. So I consider myself very fortunate.

Gary 11:19
This is mind blowing. What one thing I find very interesting is that among, let’s say, my circles, you are typically known as the person that collected person who, who used to run these massive search engine marketing shows, and you are more related to SEO than to computer science. But it turns out that you’re related to computer science and psychology and marketing, traditional marketing, more than SEO, and SEO folks.

Michelle Robbins 11:54
Well, yeah, I mean, yes and no. So once the, the software founder relocated to the Bay Area, Danny Sullivan relocated to England for a time to do his own consulting in spin up Search Engine Watch. And so then I opened my own consulting business where I started doing web design and development, application development for clients. And as part of that work, I would also do their SEO, it was just sort of, you know, oh, and yes, here’s SEO. So, I have done a lot of SEO. But that’s not my passion and my focus. What is your passion and focus? Oh right now? It’s actually right now, my focus is definitely its data and data science. But I’ve always had a passion for data. And this goes back to my undergraduate work, as well. And your undergraduate work was in criminal justice and psychology? Yes. And how did the data kind of come into play there? Oh, research, you know, there’s you do a lot you do a lot of research. And what you come to understand about data and how data is used, and how to better and worse use data, I would say, is applicable in marketing.

Lizzi Sassman 13:07
That’s sort of interesting. Like, you’ve got that base of how to look at the data from that kind of lens, and then diving more technical, yes, on how to like, procure the data and then analyze it. Yeah, so it’s,

Michelle Robbins 13:18
it sounds like a very nonlinear career path, right to go from marketing to tech, and media, and data. But data really does underpin all of it in each of those domains.

Lizzi Sassman 13:32
And it sounds like each sort of iteration of your career has sort of been driven by your own interest, or like on the job learning, or that you had a mentor who maybe suggested something. I am curious about that. Like, how did the seed get planted, that maybe you should return to computer science and go back to school?

Michelle Robbins 13:50
So the seed got planted from basically, you know, working with these great guys who never said no, right? Who never said don’t worry your pretty little head about that. Those are–That’s that’s programming. You’re not going to get. I never heard that. Yeah, I never I never encountered a blocker. Right. It was always like, hey, yeah, we’ll show you how to do that. And then I went back to school, and any questions I had, you know, they’ll go, oh yeah, no, this is how this works. This is how that works. They were just incredibly generous and supportive. Right. And like I said, having that I think is critical. And then it is my my own interest in passion. Right. So after, you know, I was at the media company for 12 years. And I had felt like, well, I’ve kind of done everything I’m going to do here, right. So a couple of years before I decided to leave, I had taken a certificate course out of MIT on big data and social analytics. And that was my first opportunity then to start writing in Python because I hadn’t done anything in Python prior to that point. Everything was kind of LAMP stack focused and being able to understand the power and capability of analyzing big data sets, right? To get that opportunity–to have the opportunity to continue pursuing that, I needed to shift into a different industry, into different focus. And, and I’ve been able to do that, and it’s been fantastic. And I have decided to once again, go back to school, and I’m getting my master’s and I start a master’s program in the summer.

Lizzi Sassman 15:22
Amazing. This summer? Or you are going to start? Oh, yeah,

Gary 15:26
Yeah, I’ll start it this summer. Do you have any interesting anecdotes or data anecdotes? Yeah, I like I know that you are so into data that you must have something interesting that you like a favorite data set?

Lizzi Sassman 15:39
data set?

Michelle Robbins 15:41
Oh, gosh, favorite data set? Honestly, what I’m most interested in looking at these days, when considering non marketing based data sets, right? So data, that’s not directly related to the work I’m doing day to day, I’m most interested in understanding ethical applications and use of data. And so ultimately, that’s where I want to, that’s where I want to end up is on the ethics side of AI and machine learning.

Gary 16:11
Interesting. I mentioned that kind of roots in certain biases in data that might be there.

Michelle Robbins 16:16
Yes. And actually, that’s how it does tie back to my undergraduate work, right. So I had to do a really large research project on the death penalty at one point. And in looking at all of the data around just just criminal justice data in general. And when you consider that these datasets are being used in the models where predictive policing is being used, right, the problems with these datasets are significant, because these datasets are created by humans who bring their own subjectivity and bias to every decision making step in the criminal justice system. So whether or not you get pulled over by a policeman, whether or not that policeman gives you a ticket, whether or not you go to court, and you you know, you get bail, you get sent. I mean, there’s there’s discretion at every step of the way. And how do you account for discretion in a dataset and bias, right that filters that find its way into those datasets. And so then those datasets are being utilized for decision making. And that’s highly problematic. So when we think about, you know, starting, you know, even just with the research that I found, and the information that I found in doing the research as an undergrad on the death penalty, which was really shocking to discover that it has less to do with people think–and we can cut this out if we’re going on a tangent here, just FYI. But just for your own edification. The it’s not the race of the perpetrator that determines who’s going to get the death penalty. It’s the race of the victim. Interesting. Yes, that was shocking to discover. And just the problems with, you know, how the death penalty gets adjudicated throughout. And there’s research that’s been replicated over and over and over to support this. And yet, here we are. So I’ve always been fascinated by looking into data, and especially data around human behavior, which when you think about marketing, that’s the data we’re all using. Right? So how are people using our websites? How are people finding us? What are the words they’re using? That’s behavioral data.

Lizzi Sassman 18:18
Yeah. And that can be really problematic when the sources that go into that data set that you have is not fully inclusive, or including all of the types? I don’t know, the sense is getting away from me, but…

Michelle Robbins 18:33
And, yeah no no. And I do think that, you know, when we talk about the data that we all use in our, our day to day, jobs and everything, I don’t think there’s enough interrogation of the source of the datasets, how these datasets are gathered. So many people rely on third party datasets or tools.

Lizzi Sassman 18:50
And we just like trust it implicitly. Like if you just cite your source, like you’ve referenced something, but then if you go in, dig into, okay, like, how many people were in that study? Oh, it was only like, 20 of them or like this was only from the US or something like, can we really make a decision based off of that, once you sort of start digging in, then you realize, like, is this really representative and can we trust it?

Michelle Robbins 19:13
Oh yeah, absolutely. I was asked to put together an algorithm to determine something, it doesn’t actually matter what it was trying to determine. But the suggestion was that I use sentiment on Twitter as part of that dataset. And I said, No. That’s a bad way to go. And they didn’t understand well, why wouldn’t you? And I said, well, because most of America, most of the world is not actually on Twitter, you’re dealing with, you know, a very problematic data set. And the people that are on are very inactive. So you’re injecting bias into the system. You can’t use Twitter as a barometer.

Lizzi Sassman 19:50
I mean, that sort of begs the question, is there any data set that is unbiased? Can you have something that is trusted or well rounded?

Michelle Robbins 19:58
I would say no. Honestly, I think that you can gather a lot of your own first party data. And that’s going to be the most informative for actions already taken, things you already know. But when you start mixing that data with third party datasets, and using it in ways that the the artifacts of that data were not necessarily intended to be utilized, right, so it’s always a matter of whenever anyone comes to me and says, you know, we need a report that has this, this and this, I always say, what are the questions you’re trying to answer? Because I don’t necessarily think that people understand the data they need to answer the questions they have. I think people just assume we have this data, therefore, this is the answer.

Gary 20:41
Yeah, you have to find the right data within your data set to support whatever point you are making. But that also has the trouble that very often I see that people are misrepresenting the data. In some sense, basically, they are saying that this happened, ergo, this is the way for example. And then when you are actually looking at the data set or the data, it’s like, well, actually, yeah, you can explain it that way. But you can also explain, like 10 Other ways. Oh, for sure. Why, way that data is there. And that feels like a bigger problem that we have, not just in the SEO industry, but in many, many industries, where people are picking cherry picking data that support their hypothesis, and then just use that. And this is not a new thing, either. Because, like end of 90s, for example, this doctor, I was air quoting here, who came up with this brilliant idea that vaccines cause certain conditions, that was basically cherry picking. And it led to big change in how certain people perceive vaccines, for example. So yeah, you definitely have to be careful about how you are presenting the data, because you can mislead people very easily with it voluntarily or involuntarily.

Michelle Robbins 22:02
Yeah, if you torture the data, it will talk. Oh, yeah, and there’s a lot of there’s a lot of torturing of data going on quite a bit. I would also suggest that in marketing, people tend to still operate in silos, while everyone says, you know, omni channel is the way, the truth, and light. In reality, people still focus on their silo and the data within their silo and don’t necessarily understand how data from all of those channels impacts one another. Right. And I have a great example of this, we had a client, this agency had been brought on to do just their paid, their lead funnel had been drying up. And so they switched to using us for just there paid, we’d only worked with them for about three months, and they weren’t seeing the results they were wanting to see. And so usually I hear from people when there’s a problem. And so they couldn’t figure out like what’s going on here, what’s, you know, we’re doing everything right, we’re getting leads. But yet, overall, they’re not. And so I spent about a week diving into all of the data, all of the data that we had with this client, market data with respect to are there things happening in the market that could be negatively impacting them. I know a lot of people don’t think to go outside and look at market data and, you know, offline impacts, and couldn’t really find anything that was incredibly conclusive. And so I got on the phone with the head of marketing at the clients. And I said, Tell me what you guys were doing in this quarter. And it was a quarter about a year ago. Because after, it was after that quarter that everything seems to sort of fall off the charts in every single channel for them, all the channels. And they said, Well, you know, we weren’t really doing anything different. Oh, wait, we did stop running billboards. And we pulled all of our media buys on TV. And we stopped doing bus advertisements. And I was like, Okay, thank you very much. And that was it. Right? So that’s, that’s what you know, that’s, that’s a data void, that a lot of, you know, digital marketers don’t concern and don’t consider the data they don’t have. And how does that data impact the data they do have?

Gary 24:05
My favorite example for this or similar example is seasonality of traffic, for example, yes, in SEO. And the first time I encountered this, I was like a very junior SEO for a very small company. And the owner was complaining that we are bleeding traffic, and the traffic just go just going away. This was in January, and then in February, it was worse. And in March, he was yelling like crazy, because there was no traffic. And then he was showing that in December, there was so much traffic, like what happened to that? We were just sitting there and like, Well, gee, I wonder what what happened. People were buying your product in December and now they are not interested in it anymore, because it’s not Christmas season. But you refuse to accept that and That’s crazy, but not surprising. I mean, if you’re thinking about your business, then depending how passionate you are, you might not want to accept it. And that’s also another trouble that we have with data that sometimes people don’t want to accept what certain data is clearly trying to tell. But oh, well, we are humans, right?

Michelle Robbins 25:17
That’s what keeps it fun and exciting, it’s finding those answers. Okay,

Gary 25:21
We have very different definition of fun. How about inclusivity? Do you have any interesting data, or anecdotes about the gender gap in SEO or conferences that you’ve been running?

Michelle Robbins 25:35
I do. A number of years ago, when it first became, you know, an extremely noticeable problem in search conferences, that there were a lot of men, there weren’t a lot of women on on on sessions and things and presenters and, and keynotes in particular. I had a lot of data that I could look at, from our, you know, decade of producing conferences and multiple conferences a year. And so what I focused on was the data we received in pitches, right, so we would have people pitch to speak. So I analyzed all of the pitches we got and by gender, and then the acceptance rates and the diversity of our, our panels in our sessions, and everything actually tracked, because as it turned out, we would only receive for every, you know, two or three pitches from a man, would be one pitch from a woman. And we ended up having about 30%, female 70% male panels. So it was a problem, because how do you encourage people to put themselves out there more? And how do you solve for the challenges that might exist that might be unique to minorities and underrepresented communities that are maybe not to the folks that we would see pitching regularly? Like, how do you address what oftentimes is inequity in the ability to travel and the ability to be sent to or pay for, you know, a conference appearance, all of that matters as well as how you’re selecting and how you’re sourcing your speakers.

Gary 27:01
I think that actually got much better. And I remember that it was a conference in Seattle, I think you were the one of the organizers, and I remember this conference, specifically, because it hit me that this is a nice change, because the two other panelists on stage were women, and the I was the third one, and I was the only guy there. And it felt somehow great. Like, I never realized before that it was the other way, usually. And I was just sitting there like a pumpkin as usual. And then suddenly, it was different. And then it made me realize more consciously that this is a problem. And it’s being fixed by the conference organizers however they can. I don’t actually know how what was employed to to fix this gap, or how were you trying to fix this.

Michelle Robbins 27:49
Intentionality, you have to be intentional, you have to be eyes on it. You have to not expect it to happen naturally, you have to be intentional. I know which panels you were talking about. And that’s what it was, it was intentionality.

Lizzi Sassman 28:01
Was it anything that you did to get more submissions, like the the pitch number, or the selection process, or like across the board, things that you changed in order to make the panels more inclusive?

Michelle Robbins 28:14
So we did change the pitch process a bit in that we would give feedback, you know, we’d get a pitch and I could look at a pitch and see that this is not a very strong pitch, but I can understand what they’re trying to get at. And these few changes, and adding this would make this a stronger session. So I would reach back out to that person and suggest these changes or focus at this way or let’s let’s look at this, you know, and as well as just reaching out to people and saying, you know, we’d like you to speak, can you pitch? You know, I know you know what you’re doing. You’re talented, you know, go ahead and pitch. A lot of people feel like I mean, it’s it’s, I feel like it’s almost a catch 22. Right, right. It’s like people think like, well, I’m never gonna get selected for a session because nobody knows me. But nobody knows me because I’ve never appeared anywhere. And so at some point, you have to put yourself out there. And that can be very hard. But I also think a good place to start for people looking to raise their profile: get some speaking arrangements. I would suggest go to conferences and meet people. Don’t go necessarily expecting you’re going to learn a ton. But try and network, just be really effective at meeting people, walk up to somebody that you respect in the industry and say, could you spend some time with me? I’m looking for a mentor. I found that most people in this industry are incredibly giving of themselves and their time and are actively engaged in that kind of mentorship and sponsorship anyway, so find those people.

Lizzi Sassman 29:39
And would you say that like your goal is to speak at a conference and like please help me get there. Like when you are reaching out to find a mentor? Would you be targeted? Or would you recommend that people be specific about their goal in order to find like a good match, I guess with a mentor,

Michelle Robbins 29:55
I’d suggest people find a mentor just for their career pathing in general. And whether that’s internal, where they, where they where they work, or if that’s, you know, within it within an industry group or meeting someone networking, I don’t think that speaking has to be a goal. I don’t think that becoming a celebrity in SEO necessarily is, is a goal. I mean, for some it is, and that’s fine. But I just think it’s more about your career developments. And SEO is a really interesting space. Because, you know, there are a lot of different ways to get at an answer. There are a lot of different ways to get at a solution to a problem. And the more experience you have to people who have had diverse experiences, working on different types of sites and working with different and within different verticals, even the approaches can be wildly different. So the more exposure you get to those differences, the stronger you’re going to be as an SEO. So I think it’s more in service of making you stronger in your craft. And if as a side benefit, you end up on a stage that’s great, but I would suggest just for your own, you know, your own edification.

Gary 31:01
Well, I think that was a wonderful way to wrap this up. It was the motivation that everyone needed. Definitely me. You’re gonna get out

Michelle Robbins 31:13
there and start speaking now, Gary?

Lizzi Sassman 31:14
No, he’s gonna get a mentor. The call to action was like, get a mentor. I need to be mentored. I need advice in my life. Direction.

Gary 31:23
Yeah. Lizzy, we have to talk. Oh, no. If people wanted to find you, where can they find you?

Michelle Robbins 31:30
Twitter, @MichelleRobbins. Also on LinkedIn?

Lizzi Sassman 31:34
Do you post on LinkedIn? Now and again. Alright, so we will put the links in the description of the episode so that you can find Michelle.

Gary 31:42
And we are going to mention you in the tweet on Twitter. And with that, thank you for joining us here, Michelle. It was great having you.

Michelle Robbins 31:51
Thanks so much for having me. This was a lot of fun.

Gary 31:57
Next time on Search Off the Record, we are going to talk about UX and SEO probably with Martin. We’ve been having fun with these podcast episodes. I hope you the listener have found them both entertaining and insightful, too. Feel free to drop us a note on Twitter at Google Search C, or chat with us at one of the next events we go to if you have any thoughts. And of course don’t forget to like and subscribe. And finally. Thank you folks for listening. Goodbye.

Lizzi Sassman 32:25
Until next time.

Michelle Robbins 32:26
Bye folks.